September 2007 Archives
Loved Talking Heads founder David Bryne's descriptions of visiting Dollywood and Knoxville and heading to Memphis.The road leading to Pigeon Forge is also the approach to Great Smokey Mountains National Park, and as there are no vendors allowed in the park, the approach roads tend to turn into a border town where all the forbidden pleasures can be indulged.(via longpauses's blog on KnoxViews)
Photo by Fred von Lohmann
I was already thinking about newspaper blogs today from Edward B. Driscoll Jr.'s slap that newspaper blogs were just dull, but now along comes that fuzzy iconoclast Jeff Jarvis who says the problem with newspaper blogs is that they're on newspapers:So I think that if newspapers are going to blog, they should have lots of blogs at lots of addresses, lots of people creating lots of brands. And this also means that they must be written in the human voice of the person, not the cold voice of the institution. And, while we're at it, this means that they must join in and link to other conversations; that is they only way they will spread and grow, not because they live six clicks deep into a giant newspaper site. We are seeing the links and the voice. But the architecture remains a problem.That's good advice!
Jarvis actually thinks newspaper bloggers are getting better at having voices, but are thwarted by newspaper Web site navigation. He suggests it's time for newspaper blogs to move to their own branded domains.
In the comments, Dwight Silverman of the Houston Chronicle provides a reality check:
Online newspapers have a dichotomy of readers. Some of them WANT the stratified navigation of a traditional newspaper applied to the online product. Any newspaper site that has done a redesign has heard from them, bigtime. They are more traditional and expect a newspaper to be, well, a newspaper, even online. And they are legion.Silverman couldn't be more right when he says organizing information on a newspaper Web site is a daunting task at best.
That group is very different from the digirati, who live by RSS feeds, aggregators, link-tracking, etc.
Writing on his BlackRimGlasses blog, Ethan Kaplan dices it this way: "The problem with newspapers isn't necessarily about how bad their blogs are, its that they don't, as an online presence have the authenticity of a blog."
As Driscoll noted many attempts at newspaper blogging are flawed by confusing the form with the content. I've seen that the newspapers bloggers who do understand it are able to build brands and audiences that are generating significant new traffic. Those that don't, aren't. I think knoxnews and other newspaper Web sites are trying to bring authentic blogging to our audiences and engage in conversation and link out and develop relationships. Whether we are doing it successfully is, I guess, for the audience to decide.
The ghettoization of blogs on newspaper sites is a real issue. Some newspaper Web site designs have put blogs front and center while others aren't that flexible. Certainly the promise of the Blog network we are doing with Dave Mastio is to integrate the local blogging community's flow into the newspaper's river of news. I'm hopeful.
Jarvis' idea of a bundle of brands or a loose network is brands for newspaper Web sites is fascinating and smart. Is special content best buried in a labyrinth newspaper URL or best branded separately? I don't you need to think that one through, but there are reasons why we do this. We want all our content under the newspaper-dot-com so the audience is aggregated together when it's counted by comScore or others. The mass of media still weighs heavily on traditional mass media.
(Jarvis image from Corante.com)
I followed it some last night as it was live Twittered. It was historic! It was the first Knoxville event that was live Twittered. These are some I noticed. There may have been others. No, I have no idea what the marmalade is about.
From bchesney ...
It's 1:50 am, why am I still awake? Oh yeah, I had to write the KSO blogger night reivew: http://tinyurl.com/2eqowv about 7 hours ago from web
Just got back from KSO, had to leave blogger party early, babysitter needed to go home. Getting ready to blog. about 11 hours ago from web
From Djuggler ...
Did anyone that went to the kso tonight catch who the group of 34 people were who were pointed out in the beginning? about 10 hours ago from txt
That was a joke thank you! What a blast the reception was! Couldn't leave because noah mad friends with the conductor's son. about 11 hours ago from txt
Too much champagne and wine. Letting noah drive home. about 11 hours ago from txt
Occasionallyi tgifk the composes channels jack black about 12 hours ago from txt
Intermission. Great show thus far. Thought the audience failed to applaud twice. about 13 hours ago from txt
Excellent seats! See http://flickr.com/photos/mc... about 14 hours ago from txt
We have arrived. Getting noah some champagne. about 14 hours ago from txt
Parking about 14 hours ago from txt
I think noah has looked out the car windows for the first time in 5 years. "there's a lot of nice houses on this road." lyons view about 14 hours ago from txt
Bending space and time to make up for leaving 15 minutes late. about 14 hours ago from txt
The other bloggers will be wearing pajamas to the kso also right? about 14 hours ago from txt
Getting ready to see the Knoxville Symphony Orchestra! http://tinyurl.com/2fb55r at the TN. about 15 hours ago from web
From LissaKay ....
Wondering if peach preserves is as good as marmalade ...about 11 hours ago from txt
@djuggler Even better up here! http://tinyurl.com/2glxpy about 14 hours ago from txt in reply to djuggler
@djuggler we're almost there too! about 14 hours ago from txt in reply to djuggler
@lasthome Pbbtht! :p about 20 hours ago from txt in reply to lasthome
BREAKING NEWS: I blogged. The blogosphere reels in shock. All three regular readers rush to their feed aggregator to mark the rare occasion about 20 hours ago from Twadget
From cathymccaughan ...
Considering going to the grocery tomorrow for marmalade. about 11 hours ago from web
@bluesloth @djuggler He knows it annoys me when he twitters while driving. Multitasking is not his forte. about 14 hours ago from web in reply to bluesloth
They call posting on Twitter micro-blogging. If you're on Twitter, consider following my Tweets.
And, oh yeah, local bloggers did do a lot of blogging from their night at the symphony.
He traces the rise corporate of mass media, pointing to the 1970s as the zenith for the Mass Media Age, a time when the three networks and a handful of newspapers controlled the national news agenda. Driscoll said that monolith first cracked during the Reagan presidency with the repeal of radio's Fairness Doctrine and the rise of AM talk radio. It accelerated as bloggers came on the scene and had their defining moment as news sources in 9/11.
Ironically, perhaps, there were more owners of U.S. daily newspapers and radio stations in the media monolithic '70s than today. Even as media has become more fragmented, ownership of traditional media has become more concentrated.
Basked in the sepia tone of liberal media vs. right-wing, individualistic bloggers, Driscoll succinctly de-constructs the disruption of the media industry today where:
Because Internet bandwidth is so cheap when compared with the enormous capital investments required to own a newspaper or television station, it’s possible for a blogger to experiment radically with new technologies as they come along, including burgeoning multimedia formats. It’s the advantage that the flea has over the elephant: Though the elephant may be mighty, he’s awfully slow. As Alvin Toffler once told me, “The flea is fast. The flea is fleet. . .that’s the paradox: The more power you have, the less free you are to exercise it.”
And in Swamp Fox fashion, Driscoll says bloggers are experimenting and employing more technologies more adeptly than the finest marching media machines.
Now that newspapers have noticed blogging as, ah, well, a real trend (or threat) and have adopted the format, Driscoll says they do it oh so dully." The publishers of most newspaper blogs have confused form with content," he says.
A prediction from Knoxville's Glenn Reynolds:
“As I keep saying over and over again, the ‘killer app’ for Big Media is hard news, accurately reported. That seems like something that they resist. It’s almost like their position is that they didn't go into the news business to report facts accurately,” he chuckles; “that’s boring!”
Driscoll, correctly I think, sees the further development of blogs as larger media entities, either as powerful "A list" bloggers or magazine-like sites of groups of bloggers that become more rather than less like traditional media. Isn't that the pattern in any emergent industry, the best separate from the pack? And that happens against a backdrop of mushrooming growth in the number of people doing blogs or writing similar to blogs on social media sites.
Give it a read, Cornwallis.
Journalism icon Seymour Hersh on online journalism:
JJ: New York magazine has a profile this week of Matt Drudge of the Drudge Report, and they call him “America’s Most Influential Journalist.” What have bloggers like Drudge done to journalism, and how do you think it compares to the muckrakers that you came of age with?
SH: There is an enormous change taking place in this country in journalism. And it is online. We are eventually — and I hate to tell this to The New York Times or the Washington Post — we are going to have online newspapers, and they are going to be spectacular. And they are really going to cut into daily journalism.
I’ve been working for The New Yorker recently since ’93. In the beginning, not that long ago, when I had a big story you made a good effort to get the Associated Press and UPI and The New York Times to write little stories about what you are writing about. Couldn’t care less now. It doesn’t matter, because I’ll write a story, and The New Yorker will get hundreds of thousands, if not many more, of hits in the next day. Once it’s online, we just get flooded.
So, we have a vibrant, new way of communicating in America. We haven’t come to terms with it. I don’t think much of a lot of the stuff that is out there. But there are a lot of people doing very, very good stuff..
Certainly, in addition to Drudge, bloggers (like Knoxville's Glenn Reynolds) and sites like Digg have changed how news spreads. I'd go as far as to say being "America's Most Influential Journalist" doesn't have quite the cachet it might have had in the bygone era of mass media journalism.
(via Martin Stabe's excellent link roundups)
Melissa Worden notes tabletop surfing is becoming a reality. Tully's Coffee in San Francisco is installing tables with touch screen PCs to allow patrons free access to the hometown newspaper's Web site, SFGate.com, as they nurse their java.
The tabletop PCs are made by TableTouch. The company calls it their "News Table." And it has a tease on the Web site: "Please check back September, 25th after 3pm PST to see what's in store for the future".
Worden does note that it could put a damper on table talk if all you can get is one pre-defined Web site. And while the Tully's pilot involves the San Francisco Chronicle, I can imagine some ingenious marketing types limiting the display to a high-flak restaurant Web site or "special" advertising site.. (sigh)
The TableTouch systems run Windows XP boxes The tables are 30 inches tall with a 30-inch round tabletop and weigh 40 pounds. The viewing area of the screen is roughly 12 x 9 inches.
Megan Taylor, writing on News Videographer, has an interesting covering-the-coverage piece on last week's Andrew Meyer "Tasergate" story.Ah, Internet-attention-span-readers, remember back to early last week before Chris Crocker's whole Brittney thing to the University of Florida student Tasered by police during a John Kerry campaign event on campus. OK, here's the story which is still big in Gainesville.
Anyway, I found it interesting that even with videos from two different angles, people can't agree on the facts of the incident. Police are tracking down the people that can be identified in the videos as witnesses.
(Florida Alligator / AP photo)
- Video-sharing sites are getting a bigger share of visits (77%) versus news sites (55%) and broadcast TV sites (49%). Lesson: Good for YouTube, not so good for old tubes.
- 43% of those polled want ads to be interactive and clickable. Lesson: Don’t put stupid TV-style commercials that are not actionable.
- Videos are for sharing. Lesson: Big media, listen to CBS Interactive’s Quincy Smith.
- 52% want ads to be relevant to them, 46% think they need to be relevant to web site’s content. Lesson: Consumer electronics ads next to people being blown up aren’t going to work. Make your ads contextual, relevant and of course tasteful.
- Make ads fun if you want attention. Consumers feel annoyed by videos ads today. Lesson: Simple enough.
Was listening to an audio version this week of William Gibson's Spook Country
I was pretty slow. At least two days it was very hot when I got out to jog.
Sessions
Calories burned
Time exercising
Miles Jogged/
Walked/
Eliptical
5
3211
4:33
13.66
4
2000
3:15
No advice
Month to date miles: 48.91
Ning.com will pass 100,000 social network sites created by users this weekend, according to TechCrunch. It had a mere 30,000 in February.
At knoxnews, we've done our part.
We have at least four active ones:
TechCrunch owner Michael Arrington sez:
The company sure has come a long way since I pronounced them dead in early 2006. Sometimes I like it when I’m wrong.
It does seem to be a very good platform at a remarkably reasonable price. A good product at a good price will usually take you far! And somebody agrees; they've raised another $44 million in VC money.
The only problem we've had with it is getting the custom domain feature working right. Maybe they'll get that sorted out eventaully.
And despite Arrington's upbeat post, there were a number of naysayers in the comments.
Who says covering politics can't be fun and refreshing?
Video for the St. Petersburg Times' Politifact.com Web site.
YouTube is becoming a popular place for newspaper promo videos. We did one for preps.
(via Will Sullivan)
(I've also seen it referred as social network portability. Dave Winer says skip the geekness and call it a social network. Hey, Dave, for most of us normal folk, the name Social Graph is about the least geekiest thing about this idea.)
SmugMug, a photos sharing site, implemented the Open Social Graph technologies (XFN, FOAF, OpenID) just a day after David Recordon posted his "manifesto" on blogging software and social networking company SixApart's site.
First, the basics. Recordon says the Open Social Graph is based on the ideas that:
- You should own your social graph
- Privacy must be done right by placing control in your hands
- It is good to be able to find out what is already public about you on the Internet
- Everyone has many social graphs, and they shouldn't always be connected
- Open technologies are the best way to solve these problems
Who's Recordon? A just-turned-21-year-old programmer whose on course to change the world.
A backgrounder on what this is all about is Brad Fitzpatrick's (with Recordon as editor) "Thoughts on the Social Graph" from way back just over a month ago.
Who's Fitzpatrick? He created the blogging platform LiveJournal (now owned by SixApart) and recently joined Google. At 27, he's well along to changing the world. OpenID, a single-signon system, is arguably his most important contribution to date.
If you want skip the read, it comes down to this quote: "People are getting sick of registering and re-declaring their friends on every site."
OK, that's pretty easy. It's also a way to let you manage your network of friends, family, co-workers, acquaintances, and randomly met people, and to control what's connected and what's private and from whom. Pretty heady stuff, really.
I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of small social networking jump on this one, but what's needed is one or more of the big players to make it happen.
Seems like a no-brainer to make LinkedIn look innovative for the first time since Facebook was opened to the masses. It'll be interesting to see if Fitzpatrick's employer takes up this banner in its foray into social networking.
Newspapers, I think, would be wise to hooked into both OpenID and the Open Social Graph, too. Newspapers are often using multiple vendor sites too often without a central registration scheme. Wouldn't OpenID easily solve that problem?
Right now, however, the Open Social Graph or socialgraph in shorthand is about as geeked as it gets. Those that know what Ubuntu is can figure it out, but the average social networker? No, it's not a foreign country. And really, the older OpenID is not much better at the "Would my mom do it?" test question. Remember, that's a yes/no question, not an essay.
At least OpenID does have traction with some large sites and many small sites.
Yes, it's one of those ideas that could make life simpler for the average person using the Internet. Open, freely available technologies that allow a user to control their Internet footprint.
I hope this succeeds.
The newspaper as you know it tis but a "historical anomaly."
-- Jane Singer, professor of digital journalism at the University of Central Lancashire, speaking at a future of newspapers conference.
With the era of the mass-media, ad-driven newspaper nearing an end, she said the evolution of newspapers is one of "punctuated equilibrium," a theory that evolution happens in bursts, separated by long periods of status quo.
Quoted in a Paul Bradshaw article in the Press Gazette, Singer said:
"There’s a temptation to see that as a threat – but we should look at it as liberating,
“We don’t need journalists to cover minutiae, to spend so much time on things they don’t need to be doing, like sports scores, and press releases, and acting as a ‘middle man’ between a source and their audience.
“We need journalists to put information into context, to do it without fear or favour.”
(via Martin Stabe)
(cartoon by Gary Larsen)
Musings on online newspapers from 1978. Yes, 1978. Kenneth Edwards got it amazingly right. It's held up better with time than, say, disco music.
If we think of a newspaper as being a printed object delivered to our homes, we may be talking about replacing newspaper with an electronic signal. But if we think (as I do) of newspapers as organizations which disseminate news and information by the most efficient methods available - then we are thinking in terms of applying a new technology to an existing institution.
Even more amazing is nearly 30 years later, a lot of people who get paychecks from newspapers haven't gotten this one. Maybe, they're still listening to the Bee Gees?
(via Martin Stabe)
Update: Welcome Instapundit readers. Consider subscribiing to my feed.
In a post titled "Great moments in journalism: Headlines have midair collision on newspaper website," Silicon Valley's Valleywag pointed to an "unfortunate collisions of stories" on the The Chattanoogan.com, the Web-only newspaper Chattanooga.
Wonder what brought Valleywag, which usually confines itself to the fobiles and folliies of the Silicon Valley, to the Tennessee Valley?
Bob Cauthorn returns comes down the mountain and out of the lab and Robert Niles has the story. Good read from one of the most perceptive thinkers in online journalism. Good discussion on what's local and community.
(via Will Sullivan)
Sessions
Calories burned
Time exercising
Miles jogged/Eliptical
3
2998
3:44
15.75
4
2000
3:15
No advice
Month to date miles: 35.25
The Andrew Meyer episode at the University of Florida has the social news phenomenon down to a checklist. It's worth studying.
The social news formula (in no particular order):
- Post a video on Youtube. Chris Albrecht on NewTeeVee: Of course it’s there. What else would you do with it? Put it in a manila envelope and send it to your local paper? This isn’t the fifties. Or even the nineties.
- Raise awareness on Facebook.
- Do a Web site.
- Mainstream media coverage
- Blogger buzz happens.
Get used to covering news that happens this way.
You can get some interesting juxtapositions in your Twitter stream ...
I'd recommend sleep!Zadi Just counted and I've been up since 7am on Sunday. That's 44 hours... and now my body isn't tired any more. I think that's a bad sign... :( about 1 hour ago from web
cnn Man dies after 3-day gaming binge http://slink.in/4943 about 1 hour ago from web
We saw some deer Sunday in Wolf Laurel as we were riding down to see the Buck House..
Updated: Some more.
The disruption of traditional media even includes porn. The commercial porn industry is being hurt by a combination of "piracy" and amateur video uploads, says George Simpson in a MediaPost column. DVD sales and rentals are down 15 to 25 percent. Sound familiar?
The industry apparently will fight back by touting quality ("We use good-quality lighting and very good sound.")
(via Terry Heaton, who I think is right in thinking this probably has implications for mainstream video producers as well)
Paul Bradshaw adds the "news diamond" to the inverted pyramid. Or rather, he says, the news diamond is the new inverted pyramid.
For us in the U.S. (and Japan and several Latin American countries), this has lots of baseball analogy possibilities: "That story was a walk-off grand slam."
Attempts at humor aside, it's a pretty good model of how online news ought to flow.
Bradshaw says:
Just as the inverted pyramid was partly a result of the increasing role of the telegraph in the news industry, and dominant cultural ideas of empiricism and science, this news diamond attempts to illustrate the change from a 19th century product (the article) to a 21st century process: the iterative journalism of new media; the story that is forever ‘unfinished’. More than anything, it’s designed to challenge the dominance of the inverted pyramid, to illustrate its origins in the industrial era, and its shortcomings.Here's what his diamond looks like:
The Sept. 12 comScore release on online video in July contains some remarkable numbers:
- Online viewers watched an average of more than three hours of online video during the month (181 minutes).
- The average online video duration was 2.7 minutes.
- Nearly three out of four (74.2 percent) U.S. Internet users viewed video online.
- More than one out of three (36.7 percent) U.S. Internet users viewed video on YouTube.com.
- The average online video viewer consumed 68 videos, or more than two per day.
comScore is a leading digital market researcher.
A day earlier, comScore said the firm had launched measurement of blogs audiences, or "conversational media" audiences.
The face of media is being erased and redrawn more rapidly each day.
Angela Grant made me laugh.
I'm dialing 1-800 ...
In addition to the earlier reporter math alert, we have a copydesk fact alert just to be fair and balanced.
(Do me a favor and subscribe to this blog.)
Want to know where the next new video innovators will be coming from?
Bryan Murley is keeping a list of college newspasper doing regular online news video. He got quite a few comments on that post.
You got to believe video skills are going to continue to be in demand among online media journalism jobs at newspapers and most of the journalism job openings at newspapers will be in the online areas. Something in the portfolio would be good!
GoVolsXtra, one of the sites that keep me busy, has been named a finalist in the Online Journalism Awards in the specialty journalism category for smaller sites. The awards were announced this morning by the Online News Association and the USC Annenberg School for Communication
Specialty Journalism (Small)
Council on Foreign Relations
Go Vols
HoopGurlz
The Next Mayor
Speaking of Faith
Great bunch of finalists and diverse!
The winners will be announced at the Online News Association's convention in Toronto, Canada, Oct. 19, 2007.
Over 700 entries were culled to 70 finalists. See the full list.
And as they say in Tennessee, "Go Vols" (the Web site).
The value of video conferencing on the cheap was demonstrated Sunday when the Society of Professional Journalists president used her Macbook to do a video conference at an event of the society's East Tennessee chapter in Knoxville.
From SPJ president Christine Tatum's blog:
On Sunday afternoon, I visited with SPJ members in Knoxville, Tenn. While sitting in my home. In Denver. I even got a chance to show off my 2-year-old daughter, Tatum Elizabeth, who insisted on saying, "Hi, Tennessee!"
John Huotari of the Oak Ridger and president of SPJ's East Tennessee chapter, said "helped open our eyes to some other opportunities."
Tatum it "was a thrilling moment in the history of this organization."
As a person running a blog on MT this sounds cool, a plugin that automatically presents an IPhone/iPod enhanced version of the site to users accessing the site with these Apple devices. What would be cooler would be a newspaper Web site announce it was doing this. Now that would be forward thinking.
Dan Gilmor said of the touch iPod:
News-folk: You should be aiming at least some of what you produce at the screen on this WiFi enabled audio/video/Web machine. This is breakthrough territory, way beyond what the iPhone even suggests.
Staci Martin Wolfe has been thinking about the impact on news, too, from the iPhone and the new touch iPod. With the iPhone:
Instead of hauling the laptop into the bedroom, we can easily surf the web using the phone's Safari browser. Sure it's small, but its portable and on our wireless network it's speedy. Good enough for some last minute news and information digestion before drifting off to sleep. (Like we don't get enough news and info thrown at us all day, we just can't stand being disconnected for more than eight hours at a time.) Are we unusual or is this a pattern developing in our society?
I've been playing with the the decidedly less cool Nokia n800 (not a phone, but an "Internet tablet") as a device to produce journalism remotely, but it's Opera browser works well for news and video consuming.
Are you ready for this shift? And where will SMS news end up (podcasts comapred to video?)
Noticed the Knoxville blog network we've launched is getting some attention.
Last week:
'Just the facts, Ma'm'
-- Joe Friday, Dragnet
Sessions
Calories burned
Time exercising
Miles jogged/Eliptical
4
2672
3:47
15
4
2000
3:15
No advice
Total August miles: 53.140
Editor Jack McElroy outlines the plan in his Sunday column, which was posted on his blog Friday evening. He's trying to address the thorny issue of covering yourself in a new way, sort of crowd-sourcing a story in which the newspaper is a player. He said:
To provide independent scrutiny of our coverage, however, we also put out a request among local bloggers for volunteers to monitor our reports. Three bloggers stepped forward. Happily, they span the political spectrum.Randy Neal, who's been doing a lot of coverage of the suit and open meetings issues at his popular Knoxviews site, said: "its an interesting experiment in citizen journalism. I'm not sure a newspaper has ever done anything like this before. Once again, the KNS is way out front in working with the the local blogger community."
On occasion, we may also publish excerpts from these blogs in the print edition
Enclave, a Nashville blog, said; "The fact that Mr. McElroy is utilizing bloggers is fine, but more remarkable is a rare concession from a paper that its relationship to a particular subject can adversely affect its claims to objectivity. I am impressed."
And northwest Tennessee journalist and blogger Trace Sharp (Newscoma), posting on Music City Bloggers, may have captured it: "Campers, this is HUGE."
The three bloggers that stepped up to give this a try (Dave Oatney, Rich Hailey and Russ McBee) are independent as hell, politically diverse from one another and can cogently put their thoughts to blog.
As one of the bloggers, Russ McBee wrote on this blog, "Stay tuned. This will be interesting."
Yes, indeed.
The site says:
Map the Candidates is a nonpartisan site that tracks the presidential candidates' campaign stops across the country. Utilizing public schedules provided by the campaigns, we publish an ongoing digest of where the candidates were, are, and will be. MTC's aim is to bring people and technology together to offer a new, customizable look at America's digital democracy.
But Adrian Holovaty comments on Marc Hedlund's O'Reilly Radar post about the mashup that:
In my previous job at the Washington Post, we put together a site called Campaign Tracker that does this and more.
Browse campaign visits by date, by candidate and by state; get RSS feeds for any candidate or state.
Of course, there's more to the campaign than where the candidates travel -- the site also has campaign-finance data and coverage of the issues. Powered by Django.
And speaking of mashups, Danny Sanchez has an impressive roundup of crime maps
And if you into map mashups, here's more from Google Map Mania.
Mashed Potato, Ya a weem o wep a weem o wep,Mashed Potato, ya, ya, ya, ya,
It's the latest, aw baby,
It's the greatest, come on honey,
Ya, ya ya, ya,
-- 1962 hit by "Mashed Potato Time" DeeDee Sharp (written by Jon Sheldon and Harry Land)